Discussion Boards - The Big Issues

Israel, R.I.P.
It is politics that is dictating the beginning of the end of the nation of Israel. Israel has become persona non Grata amongst the leftists of the Western World. Since the leftists now control virtually all of the countries in the Western World, Israel is in a world of hurt. It is slowly but surely being squeezed to death from all sides. Israel no longer has a friend anywhere in the world. Yet at the same time support for the nation of Israel in the United States is at the highest level in two decades. Surely the United States government is reflecting this support in its foreign policy. That would ordinarily be true but not in this case.

The current occupant of the white house was raised as a Muslim in Indonesia during his formative years. One really has to have had one's head in the sand to think that this had no effect on President Obama. All the evidence points to the conclusion that Obama has nothing but disdain for Jews in general and Israel in particular. This is especially true of Prime Minister Netanyahu of Israel whom Obama has treated like dog sh!it clinging to the bottom of his shoe. Obama has gone out of his way to insult Netanyahu as was noted in the British press.

Then there is the no small matter of arms shipments from the United States to Israel. Just before President Bush left office with the approval of Congress, he authorized such a shipment to Israel. These shipments continued after Obama took office because they were already approved. Another shipment to the United States stockpile in Israel and not Israel itself was at first canceled because of "security concerns" at the Israeli port of Ashdod because of the Gaza conflict. It finally arrived in March, 2009 over the the vehement protests of Amnesty International which is these days little more than a shill for the Islamists.

If Israel has received as much as one bullet since then it was done under such secrecy that even Amnesty International could not find out about it since it would have raised the roof if it had. As Amnesty International itself admits:

"The United States was by far the largest supplier of weapons to Israel between 2004 and 2008. The U.S. government is also due to provide $30 billion in military aid to Israel, despite the blatant misuse of weaponry and munitions in Gaza and Lebanon by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). President Obama, according to published reports, has no plans to cut the billions of dollars in military aid promised to Israel under a new 10-year contract agreed in 2007 by the Bush administration. This new contract is a 25 percent increase, compared to the last contract agreed by the previous U.S. administration."

Apparently that was then and this is now. It would appear that Obama has listened to Amnesty International and not the American people. He has apparently decided to unilaterally abrogate that ten year contract with Israel, or at the very least has pushed any deliveries of arms to some undetermined future when there will be no Israel to deliver them to. Thus Obama has definitely left Israel high and dry and twisting slowly in the wind. We are not alone in seeing that this is what he has done. The Foreign Policy in Focus think tank opines that "Israel as we know it, will cease to exist in the foreseeable future."

American Thinker has several articles today on Israel and one that comes right out and says that "We Americans have clearly elected an anti-Semitic president" and "must now ask whether Barack Obama is signaling to the entire Muslim world that Israel is theirs for the taking, that America will stand aside and twiddle their collective thumbs while Iran, Turkey and their Muslim neighbors finally get to carry out Holocaust II." Further proof comes from a Reuters article saying that the White House considers the Israeli blockade of Gaza to be unsustainable.

It goes without saying that if Obama forces Israel to stop the blockade of Gaza, the arms will pour into Gaza and Israel will be squeezed between Hamas on the south and Hezbollah on the north, the West Bank on the east and the Mediterranean Sea on the west. Not that it really matters because Egypt has just today seized upon the Gaza flotilla intervention as an excuse to announce that their border with Gaza will remain open indefinitely. You have to be totally naive to think that Egypt would have dared to do that without Obama's permission.

The lesson to Israel is now totally clear because it now has an implacable enemy in the White House who is out to destroy it be any means necessary. But wait you say, Obama can't do that in the face of 63% of the American people being opposed to supporting the Islamists against Israel. The answer clearly is that just about the same percentage were opposed to Obamacare and we all know how that turned out. Obama and his elitist minions do not give a rat's ass what the American people think because he won so just shut up and let him carry out the supposed mandate they gave him and the Democrat party.

The only advice we can give Israel is to somehow try to hang on until January 20, 2013 and hope that the American people wake up and send this Muslim in Christian Lambs clothing packing and elect a pro-Israel president. However, we must caution you that all of the pro-Israel Republicans such as Sarah Palin have been marginalized by the Obama sycophants in the mass media as being dumb as a rock and clearly unfit to be president. You can also bet that any pro-Israel American Politician who surfaces will be likewise trashed. Still that hope is the only one left to you apart from Devine Intervention.

While, we slept they came and destroyed Gods jewel so unless we Christians become very militant and vocal. Then opur hands will be stained with the blood that will be flow.

Without, the traditional and vital American support for Israel. Barak Hussain Obama has thrown Iseael to the baying Muslim horde.

Should, Israel be defeated and destroyed and the prespects for her survival should the Iranian War of attrition break out and the indications and predictions are that it is coming soon. With entry of Turkey into the affray. The scene will be set for a Shia Muslim caliphate Northern Cyprus(the Greek Orthodox south will be swallowed without so much as a burp).

Where it will end God only knows???

I am sorry, but I don't agree with Israel's actions.

Those suffering are God's people too.

Jennifer, please could you be a bit more explicit. Exactly what actions are you referring to?

I am going to be really honest. I am so fed up with the anti Israel rhetoric I hear from the very people who should be standing with Israel. Those people are believers. I am so sad that so many Christians express almost hatred for Israel. In fact, some Christians do express hatred. I have been in a meeting where someone was praying for Israel and the peace of Jerusalem, and they were booed - yes booed! It beggars belief that Christians are being conformed by the spirit of this world...that spirit is anti Christian AND anti Israel!

Jesus quoted from Psalm 122 when He commanded that believers should "pray for the peace of Jerusalem...may they prosper (be at rest/experience shalom peace) who love you...for the sake of MY BRETHREN!!!"

The WORLD hates Israel - Israel is the Jewish people - Israel is the land - Israel is the scattered people - and we are part of Israel - yes grafted in to the root, therefore we really must be standing with Israel, praying for the people in the land, and supporting as and when we can by speaking out the truth. It is God's land, and His Holy Name is there - in Jerusalem. So let us not do the devil's work and align ourselves by taking part in any anti Israel talk.

UN Resolution 242: No Restoration of the 1949 Armistice Line

Israel's struggle for "defensible borders" is unique in international diplomacy. It emanates from both the special legal and strategic circumstances that Israel faced in the aftermath of the 1967 Six-Day War, when the Israel Defense Forces captured the West Bank and other territories in a war of self-defense. The previous armistice line of 1949 that separated the Israeli and Jordanian armies was only a military boundary and not a permanent political border, according to the armistice agreement itself.

The Jordanian occupation of the West Bank occurred in conjunction with its illegal invasion of the State of Israel in 1948. In fact, Jordanian sovereignty in the West Bank was not recognised by a single Arab state. This provided the background for UN Security Council Resolution 242 of November 1967 which concluded that Israel would need "secure and recognised boundaries" that would necessarily be different from the 1967 lines.

There continues to be a compelling strategic logic underpinning the idea of defensible borders. Israel is in an anomalous situation. It is an embattled democracy that historically has had to defend itself repeatedly against the armies of neighboring Arab states whose declared goal was nothing less than Israel's eradication. The Israel Defense Forces can not afford to miscalculate. While other nations, like France or Kuwait, have been overrun, occupied, and nonetheless have survived to reconstitute themselves, Israel, in contrast, cannot depend on obtaining a second chance. Miscalculation on its part could have had devastating consequences and, thus, its situation is unique.

Why have Israelis been concerned with such scenarios? The backdrop of Israel's historical concerns has been the vast numerical superiority that Arab state coalitions potentially enjoyed against it throughout its history. This problem was exacerbated by the fact that the Arab armies were based largely on regular standing formations that could be battle-ready on short notice. In contrast, the Israel Defense Forces are numerically based mostly on reserve units, meaning that a relatively small Israeli standing army has to hold a defensive line until Israel's mobilisation of the reserves is complete

Any future attack launched from the pre-1967 lines against Israel's nine-mile-wide waist could easily split the country in two.

Terrorism has also been added to Israel's concerns, in addition to the threat of a conventional military attack. From a strategic-military perspective, then, the right to defensible borders means that Israel must retain a safety zone in order to contend with a range of threats in any future, even if it reaches political agreements with it neighburs. If aggression is ever resumed, Israel requires a clear ability to defend itself, by itself, based on the appropriate location of its borders with its neighburs.

I don't give a damn about all that. Fencing people in, ANY people, so that they are forced to live in squalor is NOT Christian. Neither am I a Jew actually, therefore, I have no allegiance to the state of Israel through my faith.

The Israelites may have been claimed as God's people, with Israel being the land of milk and honey, but not so that they can have wars with all around and claim supremacy.

Jesus came and stood directly against many of the Jews, and I think you will find that Jewish people still do not believe that he was the Son of God, otherwise would they not be Christians too?

The whole area needs a shake up. They either need to all have arms and fight to a bloody death, or none have arms and do it peacefully. It is disgraceful that one nation can treat human beings like cattle and fence them into one part of land in that manner. There are women and children in the area remember.

So no, you can't use the God's people and as Christian's we are tied to Jerusalem as a stick to beat me with. My God is everywhere. Jesus died for everyone. And I am not sure that there is any passage in the NT which states I have support terrorism, legalised or not.

Quote from Charles Krauthammer - The Weekly Standard, May 11, 1998

"Israel is the very embodiment of Jewish continuity: It is the only nation on earth that inhabits the same land, bears the same name, speaks the same language, and worships the same God that it did 3,000 years ago. You dig the soil and you find pottery from Davidic times, coins from Bar Kokhba, and 2,000-year-old scrolls written in a script."

The people of Israel (also called the "Jewish People") trace their origin to Abraham, who established the belief that there is only one God, the creator of the universe (see Torah). Abraham, his son Yitshak (Isaac), and grandson Jacob (Israel), are referred to as the patriarchs of the Israelites. All three patriarchs lived in the Land of Canaan, that later came to be known as the Land of Israel. They and their wives are buried in the Ma'arat HaMachpela, the Tomb of the Patriarchs, in Hebron.

The name Israel derives from the name given to Jacob (see the Torah). His 12 sons were the kernels of 12 tribes that later developed into the Jewish nation. The name Jew derives from Yehuda (Judah) one of the 12 sons of Jacob (Reuben, Shimon, Levi, Yehuda, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Yisachar, Zevulun, Yosef, Binyamin). So, the names Israel, Israeli or Jewish refer to people of the same origin.

The descendants of Abraham crystallized into a nation at about 1300 BCE after their Exodus from Egypt under the leadership of Moses (Moshe in Hebrew). Soon after the Exodus, Moses transmitted to the people of this new emerging nation, the Torah, and the Ten Commandments. After 40 years in the Sinai desert, Moses led them to the Land of Israel, that is cited in The Bible as the land promised by G-d to the descendants of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The people of modern day Israel share the same language and culture shaped by the Jewish heritage and religion passed through generations starting with the founding father Abraham (ca. 1800 BCE). Thus, Jews have had continuous presence in the land of Israel for the past 3,300 years.

The rule of Israelites in the land of Israel starts with the conquests of Joshua (ca. 1250 BCE). The period from 1000-587 BCE is known as the "Period of the Kings". The most noteworthy kings were King David (1010-970 BCE), who made Jerusalem the Capital of Israel, and his son Solomon (Shlomo, 970-931 BCE), who built the first Temple in Jerusalem as prescribed in the Tanach (Old Testament).

In 587 BCE, Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar's army captured Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, and exiled the Jews to Babylon (modern day Iraq).

The year 587 BCE marks a turning point in the history of the region. From this year onwards, the region was ruled or controlled by a succession of superpower empires of the time in the following order: Babylonian, Persian, Greek Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine Empires, Islamic and Christian crusaders, Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire.

I agree that as Christians, we should pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

For a wise Christian view of the Palestinian-Israel conflict which really informs our prayers, I highly recommend a book by Elias Chacour called Blood Brothers. I found it very helpful.

Elias is a Christian leader who works for reconciliation between Palestinians and Jews. He calls himself a Palestinian Israeli. For more information about him and his books, see the website
http://lluker.faculty.ltss.edu/Elias_Chacour.htm.

The rise of the Roman Empire was coupled by the diaspora of the Jewish religion in the Mediterranean region . When the Assyrian empire dispersed the ten tribes that comprised the kingdom of Israel (Samaria, many of the Jews settled in the regions surrounding the Mediterranean Sea).

Many of these Jews were merchants and as such introduced the new faith to the Greeks , Phoenicians , and the barbarians of the ``north \' Roman historians would refer to the Jewish faith as a contagious disease that infects the healthy morals of the non-Jews . The Jews were however indignant to admit the accusations of the Romans and Greeks . They often view these (Romans and Greeks ) as unclean and incapable of receiving the religion of Abraham . The intense contradictions of the Roman and Jewish culture made the Jewish religion an exclusive religion for the next two millennia.

Christianity, being a spawn of Judaism made a great headway after the coronation of Constantine the Great as emperor of the Roman Empire. Unlike the Jewish religion, which can be defined as the religion which believes in the efficacy of a One True God who revealed Himself to the great patriarchs (Abraham , Noah , Moses , etc , who loathed for non-Jews, Christianity was a permeable religion, accepting people from all walks of life (from all ranks in the society).

Christianity easily spread beyond the boundaries of the Roman Empire , and was becoming more and more cemented to Roman society. Even after the fall of Rome in 476 A.D, Christianity was able to convert much of the barbarian nations that replaced the old empire.

It was said that there were only two successors of the Roman Empire: the Byzantine Empire and the Papacy. Among these two successors , only the Papacy survived up to the 21st century (the Byzantine Empire collapsed in 1453 with the fall of its capital city Constantinople. Thereupon , Christianity served the ground point of Western culture and civilization . Western values were structured by the Holy Church to restrict the fatality of wars and acts of barbarism.

It was as if Christianity became the foundation of Western culture . To understand the root of this foundation, an examination of the root of Christianity (Judaism) is necessary. We can only understand Christian values if they were associated with the teachings of Moses and the Jewish prophets.

The differences between Christianity and Judaism lie
first on their beliefs about the nature of God (and the meaning of the universe) and their stance on faith exclusion. The similarity lies on the assumption that both religions accept the teachings (fundamentals)of the early prophets as a possible guide to a holy life.

On the Meaning of Cosmos According to Judaism. Reality for Judaism is defined first and foremost by the existence of a transcendental God that moves the universe according to His will. Reality exists because the Divine will exists, and that the universe has that speck of divine presence as a result of God \'s creative powers.

The rise of the Roman Empire was coupled by the diaspora of the Jewish religion in the Mediterranean region . When the Assyrian empire dispersed the ten tribes that comprised the kingdom of Israel (Samaria, many of the Jews settled in the regions surrounding the Mediterranean Sea).

Many of these Jews were merchants and as such introduced the new faith to the Greeks , Phoenicians , and the barbarians of the ``north ' Roman historians would refer to the Jewish faith as a contagious disease that infects the healthy morals of the non-Jews . The Jews were however indignant to admit the accusations of the Romans and Greeks . They often view these (Romans and Greeks ) as unclean and incapable of receiving the religion of Abraham . The intense contradictions of the Roman and Jewish culture made the Jewish religion an exclusive religion for the next two millennia.

Christianity, being a spawn of Judaism made a great headway after the coronation of Constantine the Great as emperor of the Roman Empire. Unlike the Jewish religion, which can be defined as the religion which believes in the efficacy of a One True God who revealed Himself to the great patriarchs (Abraham , Noah , Moses , etc , who loathed for non-Jews, Christianity was a permeable religion, accepting people from all walks of life (from all ranks in the society).

Christianity easily spread beyond the boundaries of the Roman Empire , and was becoming more and more cemented to Roman society. Even after the fall of Rome in 476 A.D, Christianity was able to convert much of the barbarian nations that replaced the old empire.

It was said that there were only two successors of the Roman Empire: the Byzantine Empire and the Papacy. Among these two successors , only the Papacy survived up to the 21st century (the Byzantine Empire collapsed in 1453 with the fall of its capital city Constantinople. Thereupon , Christianity served the ground point of Western culture and civilization . Western values were structured by the Holy Church to restrict the fatality of wars and acts of barbarism.

It was as if Christianity became the foundation of Western culture . To understand the root of this foundation, an examination of the root of Christianity (Judaism) is necessary. We can only understand Christian values if they were associated with the teachings of Moses and the Jewish prophets.

The differences between Christianity and Judaism lie
first on their beliefs about the nature of God (and the meaning of the universe) and their stance on faith exclusion. The similarity lies on the assumption that both religions accept the teachings (fundamentals)of the early prophets as a possible guide to a holy life.

Israel isn't trying to enforce a blockade for its own selfish pleasure, but for the protection of its people - if Hamas, now the elected leaders in Gaza, hadn't decided to lob hundreds of rockets, mortars, etc into Israel over the past few years, then the blockade wouldn't be in place.

I'm sure if Scotland insisted on doing the same to northern England, then England would feel justified in blocking Scotland's access to such weaponry, building materials, etc.

Jennifer - the Jews are not the terrorists.

You also say 'you don't give a damn about all that' - what is it you don't give a 'damn' about?

Regarding being grafted in to the root, it's through our faith we become part of Israel. Romans 10 and 11 is very helpful taking heed to verse 21 in chapter 11.

Our Lord God chose Jerusalem as the City to place His Name there. The Mosaic law came from there, Jesus fulfilled the law there, and Jesus will return there.

There is a site on facebook now 'The truth about Israel Defensive Actions Against the Flotilla. The comments certainly bring more of a balance than international media did.

If the Iranian war of attrition does break out, and we know they'd love to use the nuclear weapons Russia has supplied them with, then most if not all of the UK will go up with it.....and we won't be the only country to be completely wiped out, or at very best living in some kind of twilight zone - no communication - no water, electricity, gas and utilities etc. etc. And no doubt suffering varying degrees of radition poisoning. As for the Islamic Arabs, they will consider it a martyrdom because they'll also wipe themselves out as they are so geographically close to Israel.

As for the Gazans, they are not in want for humanitarian resources. Israel allows several thousand trucks every day into the Gaza strip, and no-one has heard of anyone at all dying through lack of hunger or medical care! Every day, people are brought from there into israel to receive medical care - and its top notch care too. The smuggling tunnels from Egypt into Gaza has made many people rich as it's become a huge business of all kinds of products you can't even get in Israel, and in addition there is the smuggling of arms too to be used against Israel.

It's thought that the recent flotilla was an anti Israel propaganda plot but my friend Jerry Golden thinks there is a much bigger reason for the 'whole charade'. I have copied his report here so you can read it for yourselves and make your own minds up:

"This is what most political analysts believe is the reason for the whole charade. Yet I believe there is another reason - and a really large one!

It is now being reported that this past Thursday a US Nuclear Sub passed through the Strait of Hormuz into the Persian Gulf. As far as I know there has never been a US Nuclear Sub in this area. If true, this would render it very vulnerable to the Russian advanced missiles recently supplied to Iran. When you consider the number of US 5th Fleet vessels already in the Persian Gulf and couple that with the unknown location of at least three Israeli subs supposedly in that area too - your next thought has to be; "look out here we go!". My question now would be; "Have they waited too late?". I think they may have. If Iran already has armed nuclear devices atop these missiles - there is no way to stop them from firing them.

It is a known fact that Syria has over 1,000 ballistic missiles and reportedly Hamas has been supplied with 1,000 scuds capable of hitting anywhere in Israel. Now Hamas is saying they are ready for "the games to begin". This now presents a lot of 'fronts' for little Israel to fight on at one time. The way it looks from this vantage point, the only way Israel can possibly defend itself against such odds is to use Nukes. That will surely bring what little support we now have around the world to a sudden end? I am sure you can see the Prophetic Word of God moving forward at what seems to be a much escalated pace?

We here in Israel just went through 5 days of countrywide survival exercises in case of missile attacks. So, to get back to the ships trying to burst through the Gaza blockade, it seems obvious to me that it is but a smoke screen to draw attention away from what is about to happen."

As for the US, things are about change in big ways and none of them will you like. Knowing that I will once again be jumped on for saying this, you should be preparing and trying to protect your loved ones and yourself. As for this Ministry we know what it is we have been commissioned to do. For those who have been called alongside us I ask that you pray and ask God what it is you need to do to help us - for this is also your ministry. This is a very special Body that has been called together to bless the Jews in a way that none others will be able to.

Chloe you said

"As for the Gazans, they are not in want for humanitarian resources. Israel allows several thousand trucks every day into the Gaza strip, and no-one has heard of anyone at all dying through lack of hunger or medical care! Every day, people are brought from there into israel to receive medical care - and its top notch care too. "

Can you cite your source for this belief.

Please read

http://www.christianaid.org.uk/Images/failing-gaza.pdf

Amnesty International, Christian Aid, Oxfam, CAFOD, the Church of Sweden and a number of others seem to disagree with you. Umm who should we believe??